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Conversational interviews with hybrids.

We tread themes of sexuality, technology, society and the self through the podcast ether.

Conversational interviews with hybrids. We tread themes of sexuality, technology, and the self through the podcast ether.

Ayoto Ataraxia and I sat down to record an episode together. Here he speaks about his debut film, an excersize in non-perfectionism, recorded in 7 days in the summer of 2021.

This is a highly emotive recording with a lot of food for thought. Ayoto speaks about his new film as an examination of friendship, and understanding men in another light. As an act of self expression from his own gaze. Ayoto voices a lot of frustrations here too. So sit back and take in an hour of Ayoto's truths. Get provoked maybe. By the time I declare the recording good enough there's one thing you'll know for sure, it's not easy. 

#people #film #andrei #fucking #footages #scene #women #filming #feel #squirting #subject #life #power #sex #community #realised #squirt #asian #man #easy

My Film with Andrei | Official Trailer HD (2021) from Ayoto Ataraxia on Vimeo.

Ayoto Ataraxia on his debut film, My Film with Andrei Or: How I learned to Stop Worrying and Document a Sex Party

Liv Phoinix  00:00

We're recording.

Ayoto Ataraxia  00:01

Yeah. What’s with these wires and shit

Liv Phoinix  00:08

Here we are, in the studio finally. It's good to get out of the house, away from the screens. Just the mics here. You've been pretty busy lately.

Ayoto Ataraxia  00:20

Yeah. I'm finishing my film. Yeah, it's about Andrei’s birthday. It's about filmmaking itself. It's about trying to do something in a week. The filming at least, surrounding Andrei’s birthday, about two Romanian crypto traders who bought a van and trying to have a sex party during COVID Lockdown. And it's called My Film with Andrei, Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying, and Document a Sex Party. It's referencing two films. One is My Dinner With Andre and the other is, obviously Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. And, yeah, it's just taking what I have in front of me and making a direct documentary so that I'm doing something and I'm not just sitting in at home drowned in resentment and boredom.

Liv Phoinix  01:22

How are you feeling about the film at this stage?

Ayoto Ataraxia  01:25

Great. Yeah, it's coming together nicely. It's really nice to just have something to take from beginning to end. And yeah, there's a lot of thoughts around it. As I watch it multiple times the conversations on repeat. And hopefully, people will watch it. And it might bring up other questions about themselves and about these characters, which are real people.

Liv Phoinix  2:00 

What do you mean?

Ayoto Ataraxia  01:25

It's difficult because it's… they're not.. Well, they're human. And I think a documentary, hopefully, a good documentary can reveal that about people that I mean, yeah, a shit documentary is one that's trying to sell something that's just a propaganda or advertising film. And I'm not doing that. I'm only looking at these people with all of their beauty and imperfections just as they are. But it's not so easy all the time with all the different people because I'm also probably not very experienced and nervous. And these people are also they're my friends, but they're also not so, necessarily, I don't think anybody's

 Liv Phoinix  02:39 


Ayoto Ataraxia  02:41

Yeah, so that's, that's that. Yeah. Because they're, they're very different people, all of them. And different to me different to… yeah, they've they're quite special in their own way. That they, in some ways, I would suspect that all of us in some ways, what is in common is that we're all a little bit of rejects of normal society. Like you know, where these are, these are guys coming from Romania, and in Germany, right. And even Fabiam, who’s German is not is not part of that mainstream society, either. There's always I think, what bonds us, is this kind of, not necessarily true understanding of each other's experience, specifically, but there's an understanding that each of us are outsiders, and that's what brings us together, even if we might not share the exactly the other person's experience. And so it's not, it's not easy. But in my opinion, it's also an examination of friendship, friendship, in the sense that these are not people… that is our friendship, like the way that a lot of things are going where I see a lot of people that they might choose their friends, or their lovers or family. Like, everybody's trying to find the perfect thing. You know, you only want the five-star review Amazon products, you don't go for the shitty stuff. Whereas I find the characters in here and the friends, they're not necessarily the most dreamy, idealised people. Other than that, well, you know, there's the shared common exploration within sexuality. So that kind of binds people together a little bit more as a common thing, but other than that, there's a lot of polarities in between the characters. And this, I would say, despite all the different things that are different. These different men are coming together. And, and that's another part too. I deliberately focused it on men as well. Not to exclude women's opinion on these things. But for me, I think my whole life was very much.... despite this idea of being in patriarchy, I feel that my whole life, I've been very focused on women. I really only listen to women, artists, women stars, I like a lot of women things, but I realised that I didn't know who I was, I know what men were supposed to be. I'm not from a generation of boomers, that's, you know, I don't have that male confidence. So it was a deliberate conscious choice to to examine that. Not to exclude women, but to, for me to, to look at what ‘men’ is. So that's that part. And then there's the other part for me, which is self expression and then to actually look at myself even though we're looking at these different characters. It's, I realised a lot is not so much about them. It's about my own thoughts and questions. And these people were just my mirrors.

Ayoto Ataraxia   06:23

And this year, there was a lot of things I went through about about,  about being Asian and it's just not easy.

Liv Phoinix  06:49

Last year was a big year for a lot of hate crimes against Asians but had been going on of course, for a long time, just reached a point where people started paying attention

Ayoto Ataraxia   07:08

Yeah, it's... yeah, you know, so I did the, I did my podcast, Asian Provocation. And a lot of it was because I forced myself to look at these things that I also couldn't bear looking at. And the film was kind of, I don't know where I'm at. Because in one way, I wanted to look at myself, look at Asian things. But another way, that's also not where my life is about. So I still looked at exactly what was in front of me. And that's what I explored in what just was convenient. But a big part was the context of it, which is my lens in my questions, and that that's... I, I represented myself is what I'm trying to say with this film. So it's about Andrei it's about it's about Andrei but it's about my film with Andrei even I'm looking at Andrei but at the end of the day, I think the person you see clearest at least you get the most glimpse of is actually hopefully for me to see myself I think that's what it's about

Liv Phoinix  08:44

What have been your greatest allies on this journey? The film?

Ayoto Ataraxia   08:48


Ayoto Ataraxia   09:00

Yeah you've been helping me a lot. And then, yeah, just I also had to stop thinking about other people. And I had to learn to stop waiting for permission from other people. And just do everything how I wanted which is not easy if you've never really done that. To not ask for permission to not wait for anybody else and which is why the documentary was very good for me because I could just do it myself. I first figured out how to do music. How to film not that. I don't know how but I mean, you know, to make a film and then just, I just got my iPhone and just use what I have. And that was it was it was not easy to encourage myself to get up in the morning and do all these things and not wait for anybody else, you know, I just take what is available there for me. And they always probably the best cure for also for resentment because then I couldn't. I realised when I made the decision that I'm not going to wait for anybody else, then I also have no one else. I had to take all responsibilities. And I told myself that I told myself that I represent myself, I'm not going to wait for representation, I'm not going to wait for permission for anybody else to give me the green light to do this. I just do it. Which is horrifying, because then I have no one to fight. And if you've been fighting your whole life with all these people, that's that's all you know. But then comes the point where there's no one left to fight and you realise, baby, I stopped fighting myself. And so that was a good process to like, stop doing that.

Liv Phoinix  11:30

Every step of the way. There's so much in there, there's the part of actually having the idea of what you want to do. There's the technical side of it. There's the wrangling all of the people around. You said you started with a one-week filming process. And you've been looking at the footage since then. I'm curious... so since this is such a project of looking at yourself through and with these people in this process, what that journey has been like for you, do you see the characters in different lights? Do you see yourself in a different light? And how often does this switch and sway? Is it different today than it was yesterday?

Ayoto Ataraxia   12:18

Yes, it depends. Some of these characters, to call them characters, they're my friends. They're real people. But you know, they become characters, because from your character, there's a character there's a limitation a real person, you don't know these changes, they're going to grow. Tomorrow, they might come back and do something different. Maybe not. But it depends. But I've been watching these conversations and these footages. So they become characters because they're fixed in time. And in the film, they will never change. I have what I have. That's the footages in the beginning. Yeah, so there's all kinds of relationships to through these conversations, because, for example, when I'm first filming, there's all sorts of feelings, there's the feelings of the mood of the particular day you show up and you know, you're exhausted, you're hungry or whatever. Who knows the moon and Mercury is not in the right position, and then you know, you're grumpy in so you look at that, and then.

Ayoto Ataraxia   13:38

You know, and with filming, same with interviewing, if you really want to listen, you have to learn to shut the fuck up. And that's not easy. For me, always. It's, you know, people say stuff, and then, you know, you want to respond somehow, especially when you don't agree. But if you, I learned that, if you want to listen, you can't do any of that. You have to shut up. Because once you start talking, you're not listening. And in fact, even when you're listening, you're probably not listening. So I learned to shut up but then I'm just shutting up in my head. I'm feeling a lot. But I was, I was grateful for this process because then in this, for the sake of the film, I have to shut up and hold the fucking camera. And in my head, all kinds of ideas are rushing through like annoyed frustration or agreement like I have, I had to really learn to be neutral. Just hold the goddamn camera. I'm nothing but a camera holder that, that's it and then I have to hold the mic as well. And so there's no, I become a, in some ways without an identity. So that, that's the filming stage, and then you go home. You know, you got to sort out the footages. And then there's another set of reactions. And then that also depends on the mood of the day, you know. And then, so I had to learn to separate all of those things. Not to have any reaction, you know?

Liv Phoinix  14:59

Ayoto Ataraxia   15:01

I think I was really heavily inspired by Nick Broomfield, which you know, we were watching together. You showed me some of his films. So we started watching. And what I appreciate most about it is just learning this neutrality. And obviously, there's no real neutrality, you're going to have some subjectivity, but at least a starting point and attempt, because then the audience or the viewer, which could even be myself, you can really see new nuances. Instead of very quick to judge. So. So that, that's been the whole process. And then over time, now, as I'm getting closer to the end of it, there's a kind of new acceptance to it all, like, especially now that it's kind of figuratively speaking, getting done, and there's nothing more I can do about it. Like, it's, it's difficult, like, it feels absurd, to get emotional and absurd and upset by what people are saying, even though I've heard it so many times that there's nothing I can change. So why do I get emotional? Why do I get reactive about what people are saying? You know, of course, there's I thought about it, you know, this, it's been like, two months of meditating on just the same conversations. They say what they say, but why do I why certain things makes me feel certain ways. You know, like a lot of things that Andrei says, really get under my skin, I really can't stand it. It's really upsetting. And I have a lot of theories, but I don't think they really stand because maybe every other day, I have a different theory about why he upsets me so much, or why certain things are cringy, or why it's upsetting or why it's awful. Or maybe it's not correct. But none of that really matters. Because I also think about it from an anthropological perspective. Like, let's say we're a bunch of cavemen, which we aren't very far from. We're just bunch of caveman having our opinions. Now, if you if you're an anthropologist, and you discover, you discover some civilization, right, then they've been covered by ash. And then you discover all of their conversations, you're not going to be there thinking or cringy. L ike, ah, what a bunch of losers. Like, you have no opinion. It's just, it’s just,

Liv Phoinix  17:32

you can’t know 

Ayoto Ataraxia   17:34

no, it's just an observation. But maybe, because I'm so close to when I'm still in this. And so there's a lot of implications and what, what these things mean. So, you know, we touch on a lot of things, you know, around the subjects of sex money, you know,

Liv Phoinix  17:50 

mmm very close to, yeah, painful parts.

Ayoto Ataraxia  17:53 

Yeah, they're very sensitive, and especially with what's going on the world. It's, it's, it's not easy. It's, it's impossible to not have a reaction to the subjects.

Liv Phoinix  18:35

I mean, we're living in Berlin, a pretty hedonistic city. And I think it's no surprise that a lot of the people who come into contact with are somehow around this scene where, you know these people from.  I don't think it makes sense to think about outside perception of outside of Berlin, but I'm curious of like, with you, coming into this community, how you’ve found your way.

Ayoto Ataraxia  17:53

Yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's probably why. That's probably what I'm thinking about. Or, you know, it doesn't help my neuroticism to know so many other perspective. There's a scene that I cut out, but at the end, I would say, other than me being worried about this film, I would say the other person most worried about this film is probably Andre. And so I also get annoyed of him being annoyed because I'm like, I don't know. I'm annoyed.

Liv Phoinix  19:43

What do you think he's annoyed about?

Ayoto Ataraxia  19:45

He's not annoyed. I think he's paranoid or, but nowhere near as much as me because he's still, we still did it. I still, you know, showed up and filmed all these things. And he, you know, did what he did in front the camera. But there's a scene at the end, and that is not in the film, where he looks at the camera. There's this, there's a lot of little glimpses, I think I've removed most of them because maybe I can't be looking at them, where he looks dead into the camera, and he's got this, “I don't know about this” kind of look. And then at the end he, there's a point where he kind of like, you could see he kind of overcame and he looks in the camera and says, “Hey, Mom”

Liv Phoinix  19:55

Ayoto Ataraxia  20:03

You think it's funny. I think it's... I was so cringed out. And like,

Liv Phoinix  20:05

I feel like he's coming to terms with the publicity 

Ayoto Ataraxia  20:11


Liv Phoinix  20:12

of what this is potentially for him.

Ayoto Ataraxia  20:14

Exactly. And I don't know why I get so annoyed. Because, yeah, and then he's facing it. You know, I think he's vocalises. They're pretty clearly, you know, like, they probably, there is the fear of the mother. What are our mothers... what are our mothers going to think? And, you know, like, there's the double feeling of shame, right? Like, there's the shame of the thing itself. And then the shame of feeling the shame. There's the shame of having the mother complex, and the shame of having, thinking about the shape of the mother complex, and like, “Oh, God, what is mom gonna think” and like, part of you wants, well part of me wants to say, “Who gives a fuck what mom thinks”? You know? And then for me, it's not so much about my mom, maybe because I don't know how much of the language is going to understand. But it's not just that, it's it's like every other society. So you spoke about the Berlin scene or you call it the hedonistic scene. And I wouldn't necessarily call it that. I think there's definitely the hedonistic scene and aspects. But I, for me, it's not really about hedonism, if anything, it's more about exploration of pain more than anything. But yeah, within this community, there are definitely their, its, own truths and visions. That is very different and opposing to other groups that I might know or be associated with, or, you know, have people, right? So people, other people. I mean, it's not like I have a job, but somehow they're, you know, people in New York, right? Friends in London, people in Amsterdam, people in Paris, What are these correct, polite-society, people going to think? And then part of me doesn't give a fuck. But another part, I also can feel the judgement, whether or not it's real or not. And that's also another reason why I just want to be, I just want to make this film. You know, it's not, it's not so much about the explicit activities, which, to be honest, I don't think it's that interesting. Well I don't know. Did I avoid the filming of the acts itself? Because, 

Liv Phoinix  23:29

the acts, the sexual acts?

Ayoto Ataraxia 23:31

Yeah, the final, the actual sex-play party, actual Andrei’s birthday. I mean, there's many reasons why didn't film that. One is, I don't think it's possible. Because, you know, you have cameras out, are people performing? Or are they just doing their thing? And I didn't want to be rude and, you know, make the party about me and about this film. That's one level. Another level was also that I don't think it's that interesting. Or better put yet, I don't think it's something that you could really experience from the visual aspect. You're in this space, and you do what you do. But for each individual, they will have their own truth. People are not going to explain you what is doing, what is going on. And for an outsider, and this I think what happens a lot, is that for outsiders, you don't know other than your visual judgement, and if you don't have experience, all you can rely on our symbols and representations on your limited understanding. So I knew that there was no point to do that. And I've documented these people in these scenes before photographically. And maybe one day I'll put a book out about that, that maybe needs more time. But that’s also been my repentance within the field of photography. It's like, what have we ever seen anything? All these images. It's it's just a facade. You know, we're creating myths. Not to say that there's anything wrong with that, and I enjoy creating, you know, myths, and imagery, advertising, right. It's propaganda. There's power in that. But it's not the truth or the the actual experience. And so the rest of the actual film is these people talking about it throughout the week, their feelings. And that's another part where Andrei drove me nuts because he wouldn't talk about really his experience so much. He would go on and on about his fucking theories.

(mutual laughter)

And I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but it just sounded like this fucking annoying uncle that’s mansplaining you all day about some shit. And sure, I'm not saying it's all completely valueless. But for me, it was really painful to fucking watch. Painful to listen. Again, it's not that I necessarily disagree with what he's saying. I probably actually agree with a lot. Or maybe not, but doesn't matter. What was just annoying was like, a couldn't get to. What is it that he's actually going through? There was a lot of theories and a lot of possibilities. I mean, there's what he does possibility management.

Liv Phoinix  25:33

But I think that actually really illustrates your point, what you were saying earlier, that there's no, it doesn't make sense to try to film this because it's such a subjective experience, what everyone feels and takes in and takes away from parties like these. And here he is going on about it verbally and his way.

Ayoto Ataraxia 25:55

Yeah, I mean, aside from my frustration, I have to also give it to him because that still, whatever I want to say that doesn't matter, because it's still his perspective. And that is still an anthropological, anthropologically, a layer of that. Whether I like it or not, that's, that's irrelevant. You know, the way he is, is the thing. Having said that, I have to still want to say and disclose that when the cameras not on his fucking face, he tells much more interesting stories.

(mutual laughter) 

He's like a fucking politician. You know, it's, it's like he's got he's got his fucking campaign, like, his birthday’s, his fucking campaign and he's gonna sell some cult or some new political party. You know, I've been saying it  before, if it was a different time, and he had different resources, he could easily be a fucking fascist leader, a tyrannical leader. Right, but thank God, we're just bunch of cavemen trying to have a sex party. But yeah, so that part really gets to me on a, whatever on a philosophical level, I get very concerned. And he asked me that many times is like, “it seems that I'm bothering” you know, it's like “you’re goddamn right you're pissing me off”. You know, you you're going down the road of being a fucking fascist. You know, the road to hell is. What is it? The roa, the path

Liv Phoinix  27:25

The road to hell is paved with

Ayoto Ataraxia 25:28

Yeah, the road to, the path, the road to hell is paved in good, by,
Liv Phoinix  27:30

good intentions 

Ayoto Ataraxia 27:31

the road. Yeah, God fuck let me get this right in one go. The path to hell is paved. By good intentions.

Liv Phoinix  27:38


Ayoto Ataraxia 27:39

And that's exactly the shit I've been feeling with a lot of these people. Still, I'm not here to change their mi, their ideas. Or, you know, I just, I do want to just, capture it, and share it. And, you know, but here of course, I get to have my own fucking opinions. Because this is not the film.

Liv Phoinix  28:00

Yeah, so with so much focus on men, you've got two other main friends in this Fabian. And Raoul. You go on and on about how Andrei drove you nuts. Did the other to drive you nuts?

Ayoto Ataraxia  28:15

Not so much. I wonder, you know, like, do I idealise Raoul more? Right? There's, there's a kind of.... is it because I feel more you know, because for Raul, he only recently got introduced to a lot of these scenes, even though he's of our similar age, and has gone through a lot. So he was able to come to terms and understand a lot. And I was able to document that and see the transformation. What I felt in a few years. I saw it compressed within him within two months or so. And also the conversations I had with him post the filming you know, there's also that transformation, but it's very compressed. And I wonder if it's just because I don't feel Yeah, I don't think we're the same person but but I somehow he was very honest with sharing himself and he's not it wasn't so concerned about his image. And five it's also funny I'm in fibre and Andrei, both of them have these funny peculiar characteristics, which is, I said that in the first part of the film is that when I first tried to film them, in fact that one of the opening scenes was not even filmed by me five in started filming. In fact, there was other scenes that is not in the film. But Fabien started to film all sorts of things that I told him about theoretically film theories of the way. And he's not a filmmaker, he's not an artist. But he just started documenting with the kind of thoughts and philosophies that I had about how I would see and perceive these these acts. So you know, he would tell me about threesomes and sex stories. And he would just start filming the van in a way that I think is the most ideal way, quiet, looking, you know, has this separateness and I was so shocked, as to his approach is like somebody that had done years of studying cinema, but he barely watches movies. And then he started filming these things in situations like that, I've only come to a conclusion of like, this is how I would want to approach it. I was completely shocked, taken back by that. And so, you know, one of the first things was like he, he started setting up the cameras secretly, quietly, and filming, and he would start to interview Andrei. And Andrei would do the same to like, they both, I would interview them, and they will get nervous. And they would want to turn it around and interview me. And I think at the same time, I want to say, Yo, this is my film, if you want you film go make your own fucking film. But I didn't. They also friends as like, okay. You want to interview me? Come on. And so it was really hard to keep maintain that. And you know, these are also people that explores a lot of power dynamics. They're very sensitive to this. And I would, I would argue that most laymans have no fucking clue about power dynamics. Usually, it's outsiders who don't have power are very sensitive to power dynamics.

You know, if you're listening to this, and you think there's no power dyn, you probably have the power most of the time in your life. But these are people who are marginalised people who are outsiders. They're very aware. And they feel and understand immediately the power of the interview, even though what's funny, is these all these paradoxes, right, because I also get this feeling that sometimes as I'm filming, I should just shut the fuck up. And I should just, you know, am I, there's a scene in there where Andre says, he asked me, who's top dog and who's bottom bitch. I mean, aside from the misogyny and ignorance. It's an interesting discussion, right? He was asking who's top dog and who's bottom pitch at a play party, which I think is just a very problematic starting point. But then let's use this thought, whose top dog whose bottom bitch, you know, filmmaking situation. Is the person who's speaking, the one in charge? Or is the person who shuts up and gets, you know, so I get this feeling like when they're talking. Part of me gets triggered by this feeling of like, God, I'm always the quiet Asian. And that's my problem during the filmmaking. Yeah, potentially, I don't really feel it so much. But there is this part of me that could feel like, Oh, my God, you know, you should assert yourself or take up space and you know, speak up. But that would actually reveal my insecurity. And actually, the most power is the one who's holding the camera, and gets to, you know, lay together the Edit, and then I'm creating my own propaganda. And I have to be careful not to abuse that power. I could cut up the piece has revealed stupid pathetic people, but you know, then it's like, no, that's not fair. They don't have a say in this.

Ayoto Ataraxia  33:51

But they could they somehow senses immediately from the beginning. I'm sitting there with them with the camera, looking at them, asking the questions, barely, or just watching. And they will constantly be like, let me do this. And it's not that they're interested in making a film necessary. I mean, who knows? Maybe they we all have a deep desire now. selves to be documentary filmmakers, but I, you know, I don't think they have it. It's not the live dream to make a fucking film. But as soon as I do it, they have to come about, okay, let me film you. Like a kid. You know, like, let me give this a try. Gotta feel fairness. I was really annoying, but I let them do that. But see, and then roll never did that. You know, and he had his concerns. But then he was also very, like, well, you know, whatever.

Liv Phoinix  34:35

You including any of the footage of you being filmed for him?

Ayoto Ataraxia 34:39

Yeah, there's one that Andre filmed of me in the park. And I tried to ask him questions. And as I'm interviewing, this is the beginning when I'm, as I'm interviewing him. He would flip it around. He starts asking me questions. Like, he's my therapist. He's like, Hmm, so tell me about your dreams. Like whatever I say he's not really, I know the fucker is not listening. And he's sitting there. “Interesting. Tell me about that.” It's like motherfuck like get your own fucking film. Get your own fucking camera. So I'll let him do it, you know, and then so in and out, but I still think it's kind of funny because that we still have this dialogue and then I have to try and flip it on him to like, okay, you know, there's a scene where he's like, because I was saying I was disappointed with myself and a lot of things in life. Right. And he would come back to me and be, like, it's not a light word is it, disappointment? I'm like, go, fuck yourself, Andrei.

Liv Phoinix  35:40

Alright, so this disappointment. I think it means something very different for you than it does for him.

Ayoto Ataraxia  35:46

Yeah. What do you think it means for him?

Liv Phoinix  35:50

Negative connotation. For you, I don't think it has that connotation.

Ayoto Ataraxia  35:53

No. For me, disappointment is the cure, the relief to the myth, and the bullshit Disney crap that we're all swallowing like, it's not only eight-year olds who believe in Santa Claus. No, it's not. Right. We live in a fucking Society of grown as people in the 30s and 40s, who still believe in

Liv Phoinix 34:30

the tooth fairy

Ayoto Ataraxia 34:32

the tooth fairy, right? I'm not speaking about Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. I'm talking about joy and happiness. Right? That there will be always a caveat. I mean, you're doing this research about, you know, top sellers, and top sellers got to have a romantic Happy Ending bullshit. And it's like, this is just not how life is. We are. So I really see that we have a fucking epidemic of frustrated, unhappy people, not because life is so bad. But because we went through a whole century of lies of advertising, telling us how great things are going to be. And I would argue and you know, even Andrei talks about this, which is funny, because this is what I mean, the paradox, I agree and disagree, talks about relative deprivation. And I would argue that my life is much better than my grandparents lives, depending on which way you want to argue that. But I would say that my generation is so unhappy. You know, my grandfather went to war with the Chinese, you know, he's at the frontline shooting goddamn artillery shells. I have to sit at home and read the New York Times and be depressed. So, you know, I would look, how do you compare and measure any of these things, but like, I would say, just, you know, like, his whole life was serving the family. Right? He died of stress and all these things, but there wasn't. So I mean, we all have our own lies that we have to live through. But his whole thing was like, there's this promise of ever increasing growth in life, you know, he's got to be happy. He's got to be sexually satisfied. And he's got to be enlightened and, you know, help the world.

Liv Phoinix 37:20


Ayoto Ataraxia 37:22

He doesn't have that.

Liv Phoinix 37:23

What does he have?

Ayoto Ataraxia  37:25

I don’t know. Make sure that his children get a better life than he had. Yeah. Was he a happy person? I wouldn't say so. But that that wasn't the metric that his generation used on themselves.

Liv Phoinix  37:44

I'm thinking about this. These aspects of people from the community of the film in relation to this topic. Think it's accurate what you say that a lot of this is much more about going into pain than it is to hedonism itself. Although I think they they play with each other there. So there's the pain aspect, power dynamics, for sure. And the voyeurism. I'm curious about the the women who appear in the film. How do they...?

Ayoto Ataraxia  38:23

Liv Phoinix  38:26

Yeah, I mean, it's so common that women, at least from the way I see it, that there's a lot of... I forget his name, what the psychologist’s name is, but a lot of immature feminization. As a character trait. In the way of always getting to be a princess and not getting not making decisions and hiding behind emotions as truth. These women are in a different scene. They're in the sex-positive scene, but they're still human beings and with all that complexity, so yeah, there's Charlotte. Right. And there's Jenny. Could you... 

Ayoto Ataraxia  39:02

And Tilde

Liv Phoinix  39:03

Tilde. And Charlotte, she's the yoga teacher?

Ayoto Ataraxia  39:09


Liv Phoinix  39:10

Fabien and her met in Costa Rica. She had her first taste at the sex party that we were at, in, over the summer, right? Yeah. You were with her when she when she had a pretty tough time. What happened there?

Ayoto Ataraxia  40:12

Yeah, she just landed from I think she flew in straight from Costa Rica. Right. Again, she's not from Costa Rica. She's one of the gentrify American California people in Costa Rica. And this is a big thing. I think it was difficult. He's like, okay, yeah, whatever, there's too big of a tangent. And so she she just fresh off the plane. Straight to, you know, one of the very specific communities of kink. And she has no clue. completely clueless. It's funny, because she also spoke about issues in her communities outside being a yoga teacher, astrologer, you know, people, in some ways people look up to her in some of these questions, but she's young, she's 26. But people look up to her already. Like, she should have some answers. That's not to say she doesn't, but come on, you're 26.

Liv Phoinix  41:16

Carl Jung wouldn't treat anyone until they were 35.

Ayoto Ataraxia  41:18

Right. And you know, and she's, she's a, she's a beautiful white woman in a white society. What could she know about difficulties in life? Not to say she hasn't, but like, you know, but come on. Just gonna be blunt here. And she arrives to this community, you know, sex positive and Fabien. God knows what Fabien has actually told her, from what I understand not much. Yeah. Because he also has his own fetish for the vanillas. Feeling the power of being more aware, you know, there's, there's enjoy, I see this people doing a lot in the scene, the enjoyment of knowing more, and that that's where the potential abuse of power is the comes in. It's unfortunate, but hey, we're not the nicest people in general. Anyway, so she comes into this. And I remember, we were all trying to, like, kind of ease her up, and be like, hey, you know, welcome and, we'll everyone's very nice and supporting. But also, I think, deep down, we're all wondering, like, how is she going to react? And so I take her to the play space. And there, there was two, or three elders playing. Would say they’re even in their 70s, some of these people. And for me, it's now I understand, like, but optically, right? Like, this is what I'm saying. Like, if she just basically came and looked at it. If I describe what was happening, if you don't know anything about it, you might also think, wow, that's really intense and crazy. But you have to understand within the context of this community, these people, it's, this is very, this is just what you do, it’s very regular. And she comes

Liv Phoinix

Have this for breakfast.

Ayoto Ataraxia

Yeah. And she has no clue. And she came in and her reaction was so strong. You know, I've seen many people have strong reactions, but this was one of the strongest reactions I've ever seen. She excused herself, she ran out crying, I think she was wailing for like an hour. And then we had to, you know, massage and just calm her down for like, the next two hours, Jesus Christ. And I get that, but this is, this just proves my point about how sheltered and protected we are about how the world ought to be. And, of course, there's, there's all these layers that triggers me, because this is like, classic white women tears. And white women tears, as we as we know, is a starting point for a lot of violence in history. People get murdered by this. And it makes me wonder, because is like, why do we have emotional reactions? Right? Why? What does it serve? Like? It's one thing to look at it. And look, there are people in different tribes around the world that eats you know, that participates in cannibalism, right? What are you gonna do about it? Right? That's their culture. Sure, you might look at it and if you know the context, but she doesn't know anything. And in fact, it's not that crazy. But to just have this like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, back in the days, this is even in Europe. Back in the days during the battles and wars right in, in mainland continental Europe. People would take their children on picnics to go watch people murder each other. And now, we have a situation where a bunch of consenting adults are playing with each other and not this is not even penance. titration involved, right? That Yeah, show them cooperating ropes and stuff and a little bit of pain. But it's not, it's nothing crazy. I would say I get more pain going to demand more pain from my masseuse.

Ayoto Ataraxia   45:13

And it's just visually upsetting her and she wailed for an hour like, loud, so that everybody could hear. Like for me, you know, like, my family in Taiwan, when they eat, they eat with their mouth open. Culturally, in Taiwan, that's no problem. But if you eat your mouth open here, they'll be like, Oh my God, how rude. I would argue, within this community, you come in as an outsider, and you watch, you come in with some respect. And she like, for me, this is fucking rude. Like, it's not all about your fucking emotions, Jesus Christ, like sometimes, I think as an adult, I think this is the problem. This is like, what did you call it, like the female infantilization I would say in general, we have such an infantilization problem, that, you know, we have all of these things in society and in our world, that we get too overwhelmed by these emotions. And I see this also with people that I meet adults, right? That are even in their late 30s, that you become crippled by your emotions. Emotions are important. Like my parents, I will say they didn't have any of these emotional education. But now we have the opposite problem. Like, people can't get out of the bed because they're so emotional. And it's like, I don't know about this.

Liv Phoinix  46:37

Yeah, we're living in a time when it's like more, okay, more encouraged than ever to go into it. But you have to really be so aware with that. And I mean, we can all have a therapist, or even, you know, even if we have a therapist know that they're good therapist. But you know, we've got all of these workshops, we got all of these mantras all around, we've got all of the, you know, Instagram, if you're into that, to tell you how to what to take your emotions as like, put them into boxes of this is toxic behaviour. This is female dating strategy, behaviour. I mean, there's like a club basically, for any kind of emotional reaction that you have. I mean, we've witnessed recently that like, you know, the big backlash against, not to say that we should be for it, but narcissism, huge on the agenda. On the other hand, a human being without any narcissism in them can't possibly set boundaries for themselves

Ayoto Ataraxia   47:33

have no confidence, no confidence. We're so afraid of narcissists. And that's the thing, like, this generation that was like, people can't do anything. They have no fucking confidence, no belief in like, well, this is what I believe in. Is my views. Because we all have to be checking with every fucking person in the world before you do you take one step in the morning? I don't know.

Liv Phoinix  47:56

I mean, yeah, it's difficult because like, it's hugely powerful and important to be able to say, speak about oneself in a difficult situation. I feel this. This is my, but you know, the difficult part is that when it becomes like a, a tool of power, that other people who come into contact with it, that they must submit to this, this tool. And we don't even know if that tool is actually accurate in anything. What's it mean, it could just be founded on somebody's mood at a certain time, or something happens.

Ayoto Ataraxia 48:35

Anyway, I also don't, just to backtrack, I also want to make sure that we're not I'm not here to bash Charlotte. And you know, but it's, again, like, that's why the film itself, I don't want to make too much of a judgement. What I still think is important, is that she does highlight and is a mirror of our society. No, so she and she's one character, right. And then there's Jenny, right? They’re similar age, she’s German-Russian and totally different response to all of these discussions and experiences. very accustomed and in tune with the world of BDSM. Very enthusiastic. Yeah. And then there's Tilde, closer to 40s, and Swedish. But I guess with the women, I didn't have as much of a relationship with them or not as intimate or long as I had with the men and I really wanted to focus on that, on previous things I said. So, yeah, I had to really make the decision. I included some of their thoughts. But it wasn't such a focus. Which I think again, is, I really stand for this, which is that like, you know, I worked many years in fashion. and advertising and commerce, consumer products is driven by women's needs. That's the main consumers of the economy, that aspect. Right? And so, there's such a focus on that. And of course, was this whole thing about, you know, smashing the patriarchy? I think it's more complicated than that.

Liv Phoinix  50:27

How is it more complicated?

Ayoto Ataraxia  50:30

It's not just this like, evil men, female victim thing that society likes to see all the time. Of course, I understand. It's complicated. It's from perspective of filmmaking and story wise in the voices, right, like, I do believe in hearing more the voices of women. Right, I think there's still way more can be done. And on top of that, I would say, you know, for me, Asians, and then with that, you know, Asian men in diaspora. That's one of the, you know, soon I will be having my own political campaign. But I think that, that still would be an interesting story. But for me, I really want to focus on the man's voice in the sense of within this particular period, and on this subject, because I think within sex positivity, and queer studies, what is interesting is that in this particular time, you actually are hearing much less of this quote unquote, ‘sis man’ views. And I wouldn't even know like, what is a sis man? I think it's become a new derogatory term. Are these three men sis you know? I don't know. I wouldn't say so. I would even argue that they are more queer than a lot of these queer people in academia. Funny enough, they've played with more penises then all these other academic supposed they pronoun people and then they go on saying all these things and this is the thing that you know, Fabien goes on about this, which is on some level... look optically, you look at him, you think sis man, right? He doesn't know shit. He's got all these privileges, which he does admit to. But at the same time. This is also the thing that you know, you have you see what happened with the Trump period. And then the, who's the Greek guy makes a point about this.

Liv Phoinix  52:24

You talking about Varoufakis?

Ayoto Ataraxia

Yeah. Varoufakis

Liv Phoinix

Yanis Varoufakis

Ayoto Ataraxia   52:27

He was in a symposium and saying, Look what I'm about to say, it doesn't really matter to any of us here because any of us that has the privilege to sit here and have this discussion, are already politicised. What I'm trying to reach to are other people who, our, I don't know the miners taxi drivers, you know, they're gonna vote but most likely they won't give a fuck because the mainstream system have already abandoned them. And all these people, all these supposed sis men that are, I don't know picking up garbage, construction workers, the poorest of the poor. This whole like sis-man bashing, but who are the people that's going to do all the dirty work? And look I'm not here, this is not a film about like, some kind of political thing and like all ‘poor men’, like I get that, like, I don't go down that route. But at the same time, look, these are people that I do know that's in front of me. And at the same time within this field, I should never hear about these people's voices and opinions. You know, it's so much about again, this is not to say the other opinions aren't valid is to say like, I don't hear much of this. I don't hear what these guys have to say. Even if I might agree or not agree it's just like I want to hear what they say. As a journalist I don't really hear what these people usually say and I don't see it out there and you can make up your own mind if you like it or not and then you're gonna you can make your own fucking film and have debate about it.

Liv Phoinix  53:59

You gonna do director's commentary?

Ayoto Ataraxia  54:03

I'll do a director's commentary. Yeah, we can do another edition of this and and with different people and we can have a discussion on some of these topics. Yeah, the touring period if I'm already fed up of this whole fucking thing by then.

Liv Phoinix  54:21

in the bus, that'd be great.

Ayoto Ataraxia  54:24

Yeah, in Fabian’s Bang Bus.

Liv Phoinix  54:27

Well, when the films over you reckon you'll feel a sense of emptiness?

Olausson Justine  54:35

I'm sure I’ll find something else to keep me busy and annoyed at. Yeah.

Liv Phoinix  54:42

You know what that's gonna be?

Ayoto Ataraxia  54:44

You know.

Liv Phoinix

Squirt book?

Ayoto Ataraxia  54:49


Ayoto Ataraxia  54:50

It'll be about women. Well, actually, I realise a big part of that, a big part of this. Okay, so there's a book that I want to do. It's about squirting. female ejaculation. And

Liv Phoinix  55:04


Ayoto Ataraxia  55:09

Yeah. And and it's gonna, I think it's gonna, I'm gonna take some time to research it and interview people and speak about it. But what is fascinating for me is, you know, there are plenty of books about this subject. Not much, I will say most of not very interesting, or whatever. There's like very practical approaches to the subject.

Liv Phoinix  55:33

But there's pretty practical, there's bit mystical, there's neurological,

Ayoto Ataraxia  55:37

yes, scientific, biological. But I wouldn't go in any of those things. I think it's just more like how do we relate to this subject? And I think so much of it has nothing to do with that. And has everything else like for example, why is a x monk, gay actor in Japan fascinated and loves watching female Jackie leading porn. He has no interest in women and vagina sexually. But this, he's very fascinated by it. So I want to interview him and have a discussion about this phenomenon. Also, a lot of people, a lot of times it's not necessarily the women that's interested, is a lot of times the spouse that is obsessed. You know?

Liv Phoinix  56:24

the husbands, isn't it? Yeah, that's how it started for you.

Ayoto Ataraxia  56:27

Right? All these men would bring me their spouses to make them squirt.

Liv Phoinix  56:31

No, I mean, even before that, like when you found your magic, your power your first girlfriend, she couldn't orgasm.

Ayoto Ataraxia  56:37

Right? Is this frustration? But don't don't want to give away the ending. Read the book that I haven't started yet. But yeah, maybe a book or I don't know, even just, I think the conversations around going about it and researching. It's not an easy subject. There's a reason why it's still mystical in 2021. Even though, you know, celebrities and rich white people can go to space. But we don't know how to. We don't want we can't talk about squirting without flushing.

Liv Phoinix  57:13

You gave a workshop on it pretty recently. Yeah, what was that like teaching younglings? Are they even younglings?

Ayoto Ataraxia  57:21

Some people older than me, but it was awkward. It was funny. Because, like, so many things in my life, and I think with a lot of Asians in diaspora, that like confidence levels are low, lower than your actual level on the subject. And so I still, despite having all of that nervous tension around the subject, somehow I could still get my shit together and perform a workshop in a very comedic and awkward kind of way and then still all the participants still squirting happily away and yeah. And why do I say all of this was such there's like an embarrassment there's a layer of shame and you know, absurdity like this feels like, so low but then that's my that is that my prejudice and bias and judgement like as a low thing you know, there are plenty of people out there sexological body workers, and teachers and you know, they take these things very seriously. And I'm here like taking the piss while simultaneously having these secret golden fingers someone else calls, The Man with the Golden fingers and when you say that it upsets people i don't know, i don't know for you, you may be too numb to it but like, if I talk to somebody and they don't know anything about me and I just say look, “I'm the man with the golden fingers.” That sounds like, such a, you can't, you don't go, you can't go around saying stuff like that. “Hello my name is Ayoto I'm the man with the golden fingers”. Oh no, I think you can is such a put a glove on it you know I have like a whole spectacle it's absurd it's like you know and I keep treating myself like that and then and then following goes around introducing me to all sorts of people with that that's my reputation when somebody spaces with these people and then and then people come to me like oh my god and but but that's probably just my own Australian-ness and you know, tall-poppy syndrome kickin in.

Liv Phoinix  59:36

And you're wondering the other day and since the majority of your models your bunnies in this, the ones who've been scoring have been in the sex positive scene. Not so much. Like vanilla swear from outside the sea. No.

Ayoto Ataraxia  59:52


Liv Phoinix  59:56

So can they can every woman squirt can have Have you met someone who could not squirt?

Olausson Justine  1:00:02

Yes. Yeah, my success rate so far is still around 99% not 100% There are times and situations but more than likely, as a woman, you'll I just don't think it's Yeah, I think every I think, I don't know if you have a vagina is again automatic. Does every man come? Are they? You know, like, Why? Why are we obsessed with like, you know? Look, part of this started with when I was young, I heard about a story or or a place in Taipei in Taiwan. There's a place apparently, there's a woman giving hand jobs. And it's like, I don't remember the exact numbers but say 15 Minute Orgasm guaranteed or your money back? It's quite the statement, on the other hand, is an ejaculating man that's special. And at the same time, I don't think it's that I it's not that easy for me to for someone else to make me Jackie late. It's not that easy. You know, I think there's a lot about control. And then there's a lot of discussions. Anyway. So this is what I think my book is going to be about, you know, meandering about this subject. My theories, quack theories.

Liv Phoinix  1:01:25

You know, it's got strong heritage in Asian doll was texts already from the fourth century talking about squirting.

Olausson Justine  1:01:32

That's the thing, you know, and then if you speak about it now, I don't know. Like, I feel like I could easily be like, labelled as a misogynist, a sex addict, a degenerate. This is the thing this is maybe my enemy to you. Someone's gonna be to me. Where is that? You know, I could also say this is my heritage. come from a long lineage of squash. Yeah, I don't know

Liv Phoinix  1:02:03

golden bloodline. extending through the flange is

Olausson Justine  1:02:12

what can you make every match? Squirt?

Liv Phoinix  1:02:15


Olausson Justine  1:02:16

Do you have a near perfect record?

Liv Phoinix  1:02:18

Okay, so I'm not all about the all about the fountains. But, but yes.

Ayoto Ataraxia  1:02:28

Is a different one. A woman says it. Are you going to be labelled as a slut?

Liv Phoinix


Ayoto Ataraxia

I think all of this, you know, look, we we can agree and understand that society has all these prejudice around sexuality. But what does it look like? Nobody wants to admit to it until it's right in front of you. Until someone says I have golden fingers. And I'm going to make you squirt. And you shouldn't say that.

Liv Phoinix  1:02:57

Yeah. I've got magic hands, come guaranteed. Is that more acceptable to say?

Ayoto Ataraxia  1:03:06

Would you say that  is going to be a party trick? You know, would you go to a very fancy dinner,

Liv Phoinix  1:03:13

I don't think it's the same thing. The female ejaculation is much more elusive, much more mysterious male ejaculation.

Ayoto Ataraxia  1:03:19

We should be working on this. But I think that is the thing. And I think that's that's precisely why I think I want to go explore this subject. At the same time. It's also I would argue it's actually not elusive. I would argue there are industries or I don't know, maybe people working in porn or performance relating to that. For them. Probably they would all agree and probably it's just not a big deal. It's just whatever. It's just the thing. But the question about mainstream society and my question is it's like, yeah, okay. People outside of sex-positive communities and you know, your average. There we go with some like Boomer Shit. Your average housewife? It’s there. What is average? Housewives? Does your lady squirt?

Liv Phoinix  1:04:12

That's a neck massager, not a squirting device underneath the bed. So you need more research for your book?

Ayoto Ataraxia  1:04:24

Yeah. Yeah. Call now to participate in my next book. Anybody's, everybody's welcome. No experience necessary. Yeah, no, I'm looking for different people. I want to find a range. But at the same time It's not going to be the Bible of Squirt, because I'll never get anything done. It's, I'm going to treat it this bit as much as this film. Like there's a limitation. I'm not saying I'm getting every fucking person out there. About the subject probably, you know, I don't know, seven people or eight because I like the number about the subject and interview that and then give myself a limited range to to do the research and then put it out. So anti perfectionism.

Liv Phoinix  1:05:18

So what's the story with the anti perfectionism? I mean, you used to be a man of perfection.

Ayoto Ataraxia  1:05:25

I was the poster-boy for perfectionism. Then it become pretty boring. Pretty annoying and limiting. It's not life. Yeah. Dreamy, idealistic crap. And it's not easy to get out of it. And, you know, it's, we're also living in an age where we have more technology than ever, but also less budget than ever. So there's always more you can do, and there's nothing more destructive than that. So it's good enough. That's, maybe that's what my production company should be called. Good Enough. Everything's just Good Enough to go out.

Liv Phoinix  1:06:06

Great. Well, I think this podcast recording is Good Enough.

Ayoto Ataraxia  1:06:12

Alright. I got to take a piss.